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ISCO-08 Classification problems. Traditional and complementary medicine professionals (2230) and Traditional and complementary medicine associate professionals (3230).
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Traditional and complementary medicine professionals (2230) and Traditional and complementary medicine associate professionals (3230) How do we make the difference between groups 2230 (traditional and complementary medicine professionals) and 3230 (traditional and complementary medicine associate professionals) occupations when no formal health qualification is indicated along with a denomination? § 198 and §199 of ISCO 08 introductory guidelines: “Those occupations whose practice requires a less extensive understanding based on relatively short periods of formal or informal education and training, or informally through the traditions and practices of the communities where they originated, are included in Unit group 3230, Traditional and complementary medicine associate professionals. “
Domestic housekeepers (5152) and Domestic cleaners and helpers (9111) In the two unit groups there is a certain overlapping of the tasks. How to distinguish them? § 205 of ISCO 08 introductory guidelines: Domestic housekeepers, classified in unit group 5152, and domestic cleaners and helpers in unit group 9111, have a number of tasks in common. The key difference is that domestic housekeepers take responsibility for the organizing and supervision of housekeeping functions in private households, as well as carrying out some or all of these functions themselves. Domestic cleaners and helpers, on the other hand, carry out these functions under the supervision either of a person employed as a domestic housekeeper or of a member of the household who takes responsibility to organize housekeeping functions.
Chefs (3434); Cooks (5120); Fast food preparers (9411) and Kitchen helpers (9412) Where is the border line among the ISCO-08 groups: 3434 Chefs, 5120 Cooks, 9411 Fast food preparers and 9412 Kitchen helpers? § 201 to 204 of ISCO 08 introductory guidelines: (a) Chefs, classified in unit group 3434, plan and develop recipes and menus, create dishes and oversee the planning, organization, preparation and cooking of meals. (b) Whilst cooks, classified in unit group 5120, plan, organize, prepare and cook a range of dishes, they do so according to recipes or under the supervision of chefs. They do not generally develop menus or create new dishes. (c) Fast food preparers, classified in unit group 9411, prepare and cook to order a limited range of foods or beverages involving simple preparation processes and a small number of ingredients. The key point is that they prepare foods and beverages for which extensive training in food preparation is not required. (d) Kitchen helpers mainly provide support to cooks, chefs and waiters by keeping kitchens and food service areas clean and tidy and assisting with basic food preparation tasks. (e) Jobs that combine simple preparation of food with a significant element of client service should normally be classified in one of the following unit groups as appropriate: 5131 Waiters; 5212 Street food salespersons; 5246 Food service counter attendants. In this case the higher level of skill required for client service takes precedence over the simple food preparation tasks, in line with priority rule (i) specified in Section 4.2 above. (f) Chefs and cooks who prepare more complex dishes and also provide direct service to clients should be classified as chefs or cooks, in line with priority rule (ii) specified in Section 4.2 above
Early childhood educators (2342) and Child care workers (5311) Explanation of the notion “below primary school” is needed for the appropriate classification of those taking care of children up to 3 years old in crèche, who perform similar (or a mixture of) tasks like those in 2342 and in 5311. In these institutions work nannies as well as more qualified care workers. § 194 and 196 of ISCO 08 introductory guidelines: Early childhood educators differ from 5311, Child care workers, or 5312, Teachers’ aides in that they plan, organize and conduct educational and play activities that are intended to promote the development of children below primary school age. Although it is not advisable to consider the formal qualifications held by individuals, it should be noted that tertiary qualifications in education and early childhood development are normally required. Child care workers provide care and supervision for children and Teachers' aides perform similar duties as well as other non-teaching duties to assist teaching staff. Neither of these groups generally plan and organize structured play or educational activities, although they may assist in the provision of these activities.
Mine manager (1322) and Mine deputy (3121) Mine manager - 1322 and Mine deputy - 3121) perform the same, or nearly the same, tasks as directors. § 179 to 182 of ISCO 08 introductory guidelines: Both managers and supervisors plan, organize, coordinate, control and direct the work done by others. In addition, managers usually have responsibility for and make decisions about: (a) the overall strategic and operational direction of a business or organizational unit (for example about the kinds, quantity and quality of goods to be produced); (b) budgets (how much money is to be spent and for what purposes); and (c) the selection, appointment and dismissal of staff. It is not a necessary condition that managers have responsibility for all three of strategic and operational direction, budgets and staff selection and dismissal. The degree of autonomy they exercise may also vary. Supervisors may provide advice and assistance to managers on these matters, especially in relation to staff selection and dismissal, but do not have authority to make decisions. They usually have experience as workers in one or more of the occupations they supervise, and do not usually supervise the activities of workers employed in a wide range of occupations. Managers do not necessarily know how to perform the work of all of the staff employed in the units they manage, although in some circumstances they may. It is frequently the case that managers plan, coordinate and control the activities or workers employed in a wide range of occupations.
Mixed crop and animal producers (613) and Subsistence mixed crop and livestock farmers (633) Criterion in NACE Rev. 2 Classification may be used to distinguish mixed crop and livestock farmers from others such as stated below: NACE Rev. 2: “This class includes the combined production of crops and animals without a specialised production of crops or animals. The size of the overall farming operation is not a determining factor. If either production of crops or animals in a given unit is 66% or more of standard gross margins, the combined activity should not be included here, but allocated to crop or animal farming. § 216 to 219 of ISCO introductory guidelines: Workers should be classified in Sub-major group 63, Subsistence farmers, fishers, hunters and gatherers if the main aim of production is to provide food, shelter and other goods for consumption by members of the worker’s own household. This concept of the main aim of production should be applied even if a significant surplus is produced and sold in the market. In some (mainly industrialized) countries, subsistence farming may be rare or even non-existent in which case there would be no need to make special provision or even to include a group for subsistence activities in national adaptations of ISCO. In many countries, however, subsistence farming represents a large proportion of rural employment and the distinction between market-oriented and subsistence activity may be important for a wide range of purposes associated with social, economic and labour market policies.
Mixed crop and animal producers (613) and Subsistence mixed crop and livestock farmers (633) In countries where separate job titles are used for subsistence workers and market oriented workers, these job titles should be included in the national index of occupation titles, along with the appropriate classification codes. Where this is not the case it is unlikely that information about the tasks performed would provide sufficient information to reliably identify subsistence workers, as they have many tasks in common with market-oriented workers. If subsistence farming is a significant concern it may therefore be necessary to consider an additional question asking whether or not production is mainly for sale or mainly for own or family/household use. This question may be asked in the context of other questions on occupation (title and tasks) or in association with questions on economic activity and status in employment. Whenever such a question is included in a household survey or census it is important to ensure that the responses are used in the occupation coding or edit process. Suggestions of questions related to subsistence farming: ‘Do you produce goods mainly for sale or mainly for your own or family use?’ This question can generally be asked as a closed ended question with response categories that ensure a clean separation between those who produce goods mainly for sale and mainly for family use. If subsistence activity is collected as part of a status in employment question the responses should also be used in the occupation coding or edit process.
Market-oriented skilled agricultural workers (Sub-major group 61) and Subsistence farmers, fishers, hunters and gatherers (sub-major group 63) It is clear that some farmers in the European Union could be considered close to a situation of agricultural subsistence (in France, in particular in overseas communities); it is necessary that a European-wide standard is proposed (possibly the removal of the category, as was the case in ISCO-88(COM)). On the question of criteria, China cited the use of motorised machines as a criterion for making a local distinction in its classification. Could other criteria be proposed? See previous answer
Skilled agricultural, forestry and fishery workers (major group 6) and Elementary occupations (major group 9) Regarding agricultural occupations, questions may arise on the skill criterion for distinguishing between skilled workers (major group 6) and unskilled workers (major group 9). Part of the solution could be to classify farm owners in major group 6 on the ground they use managerial and supervisory skills. § 220 to 225 of ISCO 08 introductory guidelines: Workers in sub-major group 92, Agricultural, forestry and fishery labourers perform simple and routine tasks requiring limited training or experience, whereas those classified in Major group 6 generally perform a wide range of tasks typically involving a skills acquired through extensive experience and/or training. In some cases the occupation title alone may be sufficient to distinguish between skilled and elementary farm workers. For example occupation titles where the key noun is ‘farmer’, ‘grower’, ‘shepherd’ ‘pruner’, ‘shearer’ etc, would all indicate occupations that involve the performance of a wide range of tasks, or highly specialized skills requiring considerable training or experience, and are classified in Major group 6. Similarly occupation titles such as ‘farm labourer’ ‘fruit picker’, and ‘cane cutter’ would indicate routine or repetitive tasks requiring limited training or initiative.
Skilled agricultural, forestry and fishery workers (major group 6) and Elementary occupations (major group 9) Occupation titles such as ‘farm worker’ or ‘farm hand,’ however, may require more consideration as they refer to the fact that the worker is an employee on a farm, rather than to the level of skill or responsibility required. In such cases it is necessary to consider use of terminology in the national context and in particular agricultural settings. For example, the term ‘stock hand’ may be used in some countries to refer to a worker who looks after the care and wellbeing of animals on a livestock farm, classified in unit group 6121, Livestock and dairy producers. An ‘orchard hand’ however may be more likely to refer to someone who picks fruit and performs other routine manual tasks, than to someone who prunes trees, checks crops for disease and ensures that fruit-bearing trees are healthy and productive. The combination of occupation title with task information or other qualifying information may therefore be useful. For example a ‘dairy farm worker’ who milks cows should be classified in unit group 6121, Livestock and dairy producers, whilst a ‘dairy farm hand’ who cleans animal enclosures should be classified in unit group 9212, Livestock farm labourers. Where a combination of tasks is performed including some that involve higher skills or initiative, then major group 6 would be more appropriate. The ISCO-08 index will provide some common combinations of occupation titles, tasks performed and other qualifying information that may be of assistance in adapting ISCO-08 for national use. The use of these terms in the national context will need to be verified, however, by those developing national indexes of occupational titles. It is also important to note that some elementary occupations that commonly occur in rural or farm settings also occur in non-agricultural settings and do not require direct involvement with animals or crops. Such occupations are classified in relevant groups outside Sub-major group 92. For example ditch digging labourers are classified in unit group 9312, Civil engineering labourers, and water carriers are classified in Unit group 9624, Water and firewood collectors.
Assemblers (sub-major group 82) and Labourers in mining, construction, manufacturing and transport (sub-major group 93) At present, within the major groups of manual occupations, in France, it seems particularly hard to distinguish “Assemblers” (sub-major group 82) from labourers in manufacturing (sub-major group 93). Lastly, one could envisage the definition of a variable for job skill level to help coding when job title is too vague. To be discussed during the meeting
Engineering professionals (excluding electro technology) (214), Electro technology engineers (215), Software and applications developers and analysts (251) and Database and network professionals (252) How to classify all the detailed occupations regarding minor groups 214 and 215 (engineering professionals) and in addition 251 and 252 (ICT professionals) when the information is lacking? It was proposed to use only a 3digit level if it was difficult to distinguish between the occupations in the last digit. When even this is not possible, what should then be done? Use 2510, 2520 or 0000? Could we have a common European guideline here? Code 0000 should be avoided. If the information cannot be provided at 3 digits, at least should be provided at 2 digits (in this case 2500)
Engineering professionals (excluding electro technology) (214), Electro technology engineers (215), Software and applications developers and analysts (251) and Database and network professionals (252) Another problem concerning ICT professionals and ICT technicians: in a small enterprise or organisation, one person may do a lot of tasks, which directs us to three or more occupations. Where the person should be classified, if the main occupation is not definable? i. In cases where the tasks and duties performed require skills usually obtained through different levels of training and experience, jobs should be classified in accordance with those tasks and duties which require the highest level of skills. For instance a job which consists of driving a van, loading and unloading it and delivering goods by hand should be classified in Unit group 8322, Car taxi and van drivers. ii. In cases where the tasks and duties are connected with different stages of the production and distribution of goods process, tasks and duties related to the production stage should take priority over associated ones, such as those related to the sales and marketing of the same goods, their transportation or the management of the production process. For example, a baker who bakes bread and pastries and also sells these products should not be classified as a sales person, but as a baker, which means, in ISCO-08 terms, Unit group 7512, Bakers, pastry-cooks and confectionery makers.
Engineering professionals (excluding electro technology) (214), Electro technology engineers (215), Software and applications developers and analysts (251) and Database and network professionals (252) iii. Where the tasks and duties performed are at both the same skill level and the same stage of production, jobs should be classified according to the predominant tasks performed. For example a ‘fire door installer’ may assemble and install doors, door frames and fittings and also install and connect electrical wiring systems so that the door will close automatically in the event of a fire alarm. In this case, the job requires skills both as a carpenter and as an electrician but the most time consuming part of the work relates to carpentry. It should therefore be classified in unit group 7115, Carpenters and joiners, rather than in unit group 7411, Building and related electricians. Therefore for this case the rule for decision will be based on the predominant tasks performed.
Environmental engineers (2143), Environmental and occupational health and hygiene professionals (2263) and Environmental and occupational health inspectors and associates (3257) How to distinguish Environmental engineers (2143) Environmental and occupational health and hygiene professionals (2263) and Environmental and occupational health inspectors and associates (3257)? A common rule/guideline: inspectors in 3 and researchers and planners in 2? Between 2263 and 3257 there is a difference of skill level required and the common rule proposed seams helpful. Nevertheless the distinction between 2263 and 2143 seams more difficult to identify as 2263 looks as a sub-group of 2143. To be discussed during the meeting.
Mining, manufacturing and construction supervisors (312) and Process control technicians (313). 1. Is it feasible (for us or for the classification user) to separate the two type of plant operators (Major group 3 or 8)? With ISCO-88 it was very simple: the conduction of a plant/machine leads us directly to Major group 8. Now we have to make a further step and understand the type of plant the worker operates. The single versus the multifunction process control machinery and equipment seems to us quite difficult to catch. 2. Are we sure that the five sectors (power production, incinerator, chemical process, petroleum and metal production) are exhaustive? See for examples the construction sectors and the jumbo machine operating for the tunnel construction. 3. In the real world is it so clear the boundary between a supervisor, whose main duty is to organise at best the human resources, and a process control technician, whose duty is rather a technical control of the production process. In the Italian labour market the two functions (technical and organizational) are usually joined together in a single occupation. One answer could be to use the rules proposed for Occupations with a broad range of tasks and duties. The question should anyway be discussed during the meeting.
General office clerks (4110), Secretaries (general) (4120) Contact centre information clerks (4222) Enquiry clerks (4225) It seems that the clerical occupations performed in the Italian labour market melt the work activities of different categories of major group 4. Hence, it could be difficult for instance to take 4110 apart from 4120 or 4222 and 4225. If this is a general problem for the EU Member States, we should agree on a common way to proceed, as the commission regulation No 430/2005 of 15 March 2005 says that ‘Occupation ISCO-88 (COM) should be coded at 3 or if possible 4 digit level’. Practical rules to distinguish secretaries from clerks from one side and Contact centre information clerks and Enquiry clerks from another should be discussed.
Sports coaches, instructors and officials (3422) and Fitness and recreation instructors and program leaders (3423) What is the distinction between 3422 and 3423? Ski instructor and swim instructors are in 3422 and sailing instructors, horse riding instructors and underwater diving instructors are in 3423 To be discussed during the meeting
Fruit, vegetable and related preservers (7514) and Food and related products machine operators (including “canning machine operator“) (8160) If, for a particular occupation, I have to choose between a unit group of the major group 7 "Craft and related trades workers" and a unit group of the major group 8 "Plant and machine operators and assemblers", I sometimes ask certain economic organisations or enterprises whether the working processes involved are for the most part carried out manually or by machine. On the basis of the information provided, I then apply the ISCO recoding. But this procedure does not always lead to a clear allocation for problems of this kind. The same problem applies to the following unit groups: 7533 Sewing, embroidery and related workers 8153 Sewing machine operators 7535 Pelt dressers, tanners and fellmongers 8155 Fur and leather preparing machine operators 7536 Shoemakers and related workers 8156 Shoemaking and related machine operators To be discussed during the meeting
How do we classify a generalist medical practitioner (=someone who has completed the corresponding university degree) who practices its profession with an alternative, traditional o complementary orientation? - 2211 Generalist medical practitioners or - 2230 Traditional and complementary medicine professionals In this case we are facing a situation where multiple tasks from different jobs are performed. § 173 of the introduction to ISCO-08 states: In such cases application of the following rules are suggested, in the order of precedence given below, when implementing ISCO-08 and related classifications: i. In cases where the tasks and duties performed require skills usually obtained through different levels of training and experience, jobs should be classified in accordance with those tasks and duties which require the highest level of skills. For instance a job which consists of driving a van, loading and unloading it and delivering goods by hand should be classified in Unit group 8322, Car taxi and van drivers. ii. In cases where the tasks and duties are connected with different stages of the production and distribution of goods process, tasks and duties related to the production stage should take priority over associated ones, such as those related to the sales and marketing of the same goods, their transportation or the management of the production process. For example, a baker who bakes bread and pastries and also sells these products should not be classified as a sales person, but as a baker, which means, in ISCO-08 terms, Unit group 7512, Bakers, pastry-cooks and confectionery makers.
iii. Where the tasks and duties performed are at both the same skill level and the same stage of production, jobs should be classified according to the predominant tasks performed. For example a ‘fire door installer’ may assemble and install doors, door frames and fittings and also install and connect electrical wiring systems so that the door will close automatically in the event of a fire alarm. In this case, the job requires skills both as a carpenter and as an electrician but the most time consuming part of the work relates to carpentry. It should therefore be classified in unit group 7115, Carpenters and joiners, rather than in unit group 7411, Building and related electricians. Therefore for this case the rule for decision will be based on the predominant tasks performed.
Where to classify lawyer-candidates going through his probation? Do they belong to 2611 or 2619? This is a similar case as Apprentices and trainees and as it is mentioned on § 174 of the introductory guidelines of ISCO-08: In ISCO-08 apprentices and trainees are classified according to the occupation they are training for, if they are employed in the capacity of apprentice or trainee. Therefore lawyer candidates should be coded as 2611.
Where to classify the Inspectors of high level? Where to classify the high level staff without leadership functions of the safety and policeman forces? An important part of their jobs is a scientific-research oriented job and most have tertiary education. It does not look appropriate to classify them in group 3355, but there is no suitable group in Major Group 2. Indeed it does not look appropriate to have them in Major Group 3. The closest group would be 2422 but the description of the group does not fit either. It looks that they will have to remain in Major Group 3 until the next revision.
Where to classify those who works at waterworks, operate, maintain, control, repair the water supply system. We find similar occupations among engineers, technicians (3132) but we are not quite sure. To be discussed during the meeting
How to treat persons who work as pizzaiolo (i.e. a person who prepares pizza). § 203: When the type of food cooked is specified it may be necessary to consider the cooking process used and whether, in the national context, such items are generally cooked according to a simple predefined process. For example, Occupation titles such as ‘Hamburger cook’ or ‘Pizza cook’ would generally be coded to unit group 9411, Fast food preparers. In many cases information about the employer may be helpful in determining the most appropriate code. For example, it may be appropriate to consider ‘cooks’ employed by certain well known fast food chains, specialising in hamburgers or fried chicken, as fast food preparers.
Where can we classify “Head of department” in universities? For example, head of department of statistics. If they perform mostly management tasks they should be classified in 1345.
Where to classify bank intelligence officer and similar occupations? Could they be considered financial analysts 2413?
Where to classify workers in travel agencies at higher level? § 141: ISCO-88 Unit group 3414, Travel consultants and organizers, was merged with Unit group 4221, Travel agency and related clerks on the basis that the distinction between these groups is not clear. The merged group was renamed ‘Travel consultants and clerks’ and its scope defined to include those who make travel and accommodation bookings, issue travel tickets, and/or provide advice and information on local attractions and accommodation etc. ‘Tour operators’, who plan, design and organize package and group tours, make bulk travel and accommodation bookings are explicitly listed as an occupation included in Unit group 3339, Business services agents not elsewhere classified.
Where to classify convenors who are core workers in trade unions? Could it be 3411 Legal and related associate professionals, because convenors’ work is closer to legal work (34) or any other sub-major groups in 3? To be discussed in the meeting
Where to classify Emergency call operators and rescue leaders? Perhaps 3521 could be used, but it is probably focused on technical aspects. The emergency call operators seams a quite similar job with Contact centre information clerks 4222 and the rescue leaders have some similarities with fire-fighters 5411. To be discussed
It is clear in the ISCO-08 that carpenters and joiners who cut, shape, assemble, erect, maintain and repair various types of structures and fittings made from wood and other materials, are classified under 7115. Where should we classify similar professionals who cut, shape, assemble and fit iron or aluminium structures and fittings (doors, windows, etc.)? To be discussed
Where to classify a medical doctor if he/she is head of section in the hospital? In which Group it should be classified – 1342 or 221? If they perform mostly management tasks they should be classified in 1342
Where do we classify wellness occupations like wellness trainers, wellness and vital coaches, wellness coaches, yoga trainers, shiatsu practitioners etc.? Where is the borderline between wellness and health? Shiatsu practitioners are classified in 3255 Physiotherapy technicians and assistants. All the other wellness occupations would fit in 5142 Beauticians and related workers.
Scrap merchants are mentioned in the explanatory notes in 9612. We believe that the scrap merchants have other tasks than refuse sorters, that are classified in 9612. Is the classification in 9612 correct? Why not? One of the tasks in this group is selling recyclable or reusable materials…
Can you give us some examples for occupations classified in 2422? From the job's index we could identify the following: Adviser, political Adviser, public policy Analyst, intelligence Analyst, policy Analyst, security: policy Analyst, treasury: government policy Consultant, security: policy Officer, intelligence Officer, parliamentary: research Officer, security: policy Planner, social Researcher, developing or analysing government policy Researcher, health: policy Researcher, reviewing policy
Can you give us some examples for occupations classified in 2143? From the job's index we could identify these 2: Engineer, environmental Engineer, process: waste water
Answers from the Member States The following question was asked to all Member States: “Are you able to identify in your country the non-strictly military occupations in the armed forces (doctors, cooks, secretaries, etc)? If not could you please explain why?" • The majority of the countries tend to have a preference for classifying armed force occupations which have an equivalent among civilian occupations (doctors, drivers, kitchen staff, etc) in the respective groups corresponding to the tasks performed. • Nevertheless, some countries classify all of them together either because they do not get enough information on the tasks performed to do a more precise classification, or for confidentiality reasons. Finally we can also find countries which use both approaches depending on the sources.
Answers from the Member States • It is anyway difficult to establish the boundaries between what a strictly military occupation is and what a civilian one is. Many armed force modern occupations are very technical and finally only a small part is real involved in combat operations. If we want to make the distinction, a very precise and easy to implement definition of military occupation should be provided. • In most of the cases the classification relies on a self declaration which includes in this case a high degree of subjectivity. 2 persons doing exactly the same job can declare themselves as a doctor or as a captain and even the same person can provide different answers in different moments. • At the present, this group is neither comparable between the Member States nor between sources. Furthermore, this has as consequence that we do not have either comparable data for the civilian occupations which also exist in armed forces because a military doctor declaring himself as a doctor will not be coded in the group of armed forces whatever is the approach chosen by the Member States.
Eurostat proposal • - Use the definition 'if member of the armed force then ISCO code 0' • - Use ancillary variables to identify possible members of the armed forces (information on the employer, economic activity of the local unit - 84.22 Defence,…) and in the case the person self declare be something else, ask an extra question to verify if he/she is indeed a member of the armed forces.
Background • During the last Task Force meeting, the question of ISCO-08 occupations which do not exist in EU countries was raised. • All Member States were consulted on this issue • No information was provided by Estonia, France, Luxembourg, United Kingdom and Turkey
Answers • Only Romania stated that all ISCO-08 occupations exist in their country • More than 70% of the answering countries do not have: • Traditional chiefs and heads of village – 1113 • Subsistence crop farmers – 6310 • Subsistence livestock farmers - 6320 • Subsistence fishers, hunters, trappers and gatherers - 6340 • Water and firewood collectors - 9624 • More than 50% of the answering countries do not have: • Paramedical practitioners - 2240 • Scribes and related workers - 4414 • Subsistence mixed crop and livestock farmers - 6330 • A certain number of surprising groups of occupations were mentioned as non existent in some countries like physiotherapists or police officers.
Eurostat Proposal • In general we cannot identify ISCO-08 groups of occupations for which we can say that they do not exist in the EU countries. • This list can nevertheless be useful for the interpretation of the data and for the national statistical offices which can use it to identify errors in the codification (ex: if some of the codes in the list are coded) but this should be used with care and the country has to be absolutely sure that the occupation really do not exist.
