Talking With Mormons

Talking With Mormons Don Closson dclosson@probe.org

A Prophet: Joseph Smith • Born in 1805 in Vermont. Family soon moved to Palmyra area of New York. • Poverty drove the family to practice divination and treasure seeking. • “Jesus Christ excepted, no better man [than Joseph Smith] ever lived or does live upon this earth.” Brigham Young, 1862

A Prophet: Joseph Smith • From 1825 to his death, Joseph Smith claimed to have received revelation from Moroni, John the Baptist, the Apostle John and others. • Resulted in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price • In June 1844 Joseph Smith and his brother were killed by a mob in Carthage, Illinois.

Concerns • Early connection with divination and seer stones to find hidden buried treasure • Connection with Freemasonry through his brother Hyrum and its influence on Mormon thinking and ritual • Record as a prophet

A Restoration: First Vision • Smith claims to have had his first vision in 1820. • Went to a secluded grove to pray • Two radiant “personages” appeared • The first pointed to the second saying “This is my blessed son. Hear him!”

A Restoration: First Vision • None of the current Christian groups were correct; all were an abomination in God’s sight. • All Christian teachers were corrupt teaching commandments of men rather than doctrines of God.

A Restoration: First Vision • “Either Joseph Smith talked with the Father and the Son or he did not. If he did not, we are engaged in a blasphemy.” (Gordon B. Hinckley, recent LDS President)

A Restoration • Instant apostasy – After the apostle John stopped teaching (he never died) the church lost the true gospel. • Lost scriptures – According to 1 Nephi 13, there will be the formation of that great and abominable church. Abominable because “they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.” (1 Nephi 13:26)

Concerns • Multiple first visions • It is difficult to imagine how the gospel was lost instantly and completely • It is not good enough to just argue that parts of scripture have been lost; when and how they were lost • Over 5,000 Greek manuscripts and over 20,000 early translations • Early church Fathers quoted the scriptures • We see nothing like the Mormon faith in their writings, not even to refute it

Concerns • Dead Sea scrolls affirm our OT writings • All the books except Ester were found • Written at least 100 years before Christ. • An argument from silence.

Revelation: Book of Mormon • Claimed to be a translation from “reformed Egyptian” characters engraved on Moroni’s plates • Covers 2,200 B.C. to 421 A.D. • Three migrations from Israel to America • Nephites and Lamanites

Book of Mormon – ConcernsSources • Buried golden tablets - Royal Arch Freemasonry, Legend of Enoch found in The Freemason’s Monitor (1802, Thomas S. Webb) • Camora islands and their capital city Moroni would have been found in any geographical source in the 1800s. The 1830’s version of the BOM often spelled Cumorah as Camorah.

Book of Mormon - Concerns • American Indians are Jews • Jews in America (Thomas Thorowgood, 1650); The History of the American Indians, (James Adair, 1775); A Star in the West; or a Humble Attempt to Discover the Long Lost Tribes of Israel… (Elias Boudinot, 1816) • View of the Hebrews by Ethan Smith published in 1823 and 1825. • Same basic storyline, premise and shared wording • Oliver Cowdery connection

Book of Mormon - Concerns • Large sections of the King James Bible included • Original 1830 version contained atrocious grammar • Made inconsistent use of the archaic English • Book of Abraham (Pearl of Great Price) • No archeological support

History and the Truth • “I have a hard time with historians because they idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys… Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting.” (Apostle Boyd K. Packer in 1976) • “We do not have to prove the Book of Mormon is true. The book is its own proof. All we need to do is read it and declare it! The Book of Mormon is not on trial.” (Ezra Taft Benson)

We are all the same! (God the Father, Jesus, angels, mankind) Intelligences→ spirits→ incarnations→ gods Eternal progression of gods Jesus becomes a savior and a god The Person of Jesus Christ

Two Key Points The Mormon teaching that Jesus is Jehovah or Yahweh of the OT and the Father is Elohim is in conflict with the Bible. The Mormon teaching that Jesus is the same kind of being as we are is in conflict with the Bible. The Mormon Jesus Christ: Concerns

Deuteronomy 6:4 • “Hear, O Israel: The LORD [Jehovah] our God [Elohim] is one LORD [Jehovah].” • For the Mormons to be right this would read, “Hear, O Israel: The Jesus our Father is one Jesus.”

One God • Isaiah 43:10 “… Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.” • Isaiah 44:6 “…I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.” • Isaiah 45:5 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God…” • Isaiah 45:21 “… And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.”

Who Created All Things! • John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. • 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. • Revelation 4:11 “…for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

Hebrews 1:1-3 • 1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Hebrews 1:1-3 • 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Colossians 1:15-17 • He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together… • How can we be co-eternal with Jesus?

Jesus is Honored as God • John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. • Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another... • He is the object of worship and faith • Let all God's angels worship him. (Hebrews 1:6) But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)

Questions? ???

The Law and PriesthoodA Necessary Restoration? • You need priesthood authority to: • Be married • Be baptized • Receive the Holy Spirit • Miracles are the result of priesthood power • Aaronic (Levitical) and Melchizedek priesthoods

Mormon Priesthood: Concerns • It is not the same as the Old Testament Aaronic priesthood • High Priest - Through Eleazar, son of Aaron • Priesthood – House of Aaron • Hereditary • For life • No physical defects • Holy of Holies on Day of Atonement and care for the Temple in Jerusalem

Mormon Priesthood: Concerns • Aaronic Priesthood (Heb. 7-10) • Weak & useless • Made nothing perfect • Temporary • Priests were mortal and sinful

Jesus: Our High Priest • Hebrews 7:22-25 • This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. • The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. • Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

Mormon Priesthood: Concerns • Jesus • Offers a better covenant • Earthly tabernacle has been replaced by the real thing in heaven • Saves completely • Permanent high priest (Melchizedek)

Melchizedek • Jesus Christ is the only person in the New Testament ordained to the priesthood of Melchizedek • Nowhere in the New Testament is a believer told to become a priest like Melchizedek.

Royal Priesthood • 1 Peter 2:9-10 “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” • Romans 15:16 Paul mentions that he has a “priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.”

Mormon View: The AtonementA parable • The creditor appeared and threatened to repossess all that the man owned and throw him in prison. • While the debtor begged for mercy, the creditor was only concerned about justice and the law.

Mormon View: The AtonementA parable • Jesus stands before the creditor and says “I will pay the debt if you will free my friend from his commitment so he may keep his possessions and not go to prison.” • But then Jesus turns to the debtor and says “If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?” • He adds, “you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible.”

Mormon View: The AtonementExaltation • Faith – Obey Jesus’ Commands • Repentance – Paying back our debt • Baptism (by priest) • Receiving the Holy Spirit (Laying on of hands by priest) • Priesthood (Melchizedek and Aaronic) • Temple Endowment

Mormon View: The AtonementExaltation • Celestial Marriage • Observing the Word of Wisdom • Sustain the Prophet • Tithing • Sacrament meetings • Obedience

The Atonement: Concerns • What is salvation? • What makes us holy; our works or Christ? • Is the Mormon gospel Christian?

The Atonement: Concerns • Hebrews 10 – Sinners Made Holy • Hebrews 10:10, 14 “…we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.”

The Atonement: Concerns • Galatians 2:16 “know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”

Are Mormons Christians? • Mormon apologists Peterson and Ricks argue: “If anyone claims to see in Jesus of Nazareth a personage of unique and pre-eminent authority, that individual should be considered Christian.” • But Muslims would qualify by that definition, as would the Judaizers in Galatians.

Are Mormons Christians? • “I cannot, as of this writing, therefore affirm with integrity that either Mormonism as a whole or any individual, based solely on his or her affirmation of the totality of LDS doctrine, deserves the label “Christian” in any standard or helpful sense of the word.” Craig Blomberg

First Vision?

Mormonism - Historical Context • Direct connection to Christ • A miraculous faith • “Reasonable” beliefs • Universal atonement • Denial of immaterial spiritual reality • Rejection of the Trinity • A limited God

Apostasy of the early church Immersion baptism for salvation Rejection of all historic creeds Separation from all current forms of Christianity Use Christ in name New translation of Bible Harmony of science and religion Strong anti-Calvinism Preached against “faith only” salvation Doubts personhood of Holy Spirit Necessity of weekly communion No paid clergy Self-reliance, tithing, care of the needy Sabbath keeping, return to morality America as the new Zion Missionary zeal Campbellite TheologyDisciples of Christ

Talking With Mormons