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New Property v. Old Property. How are the rights different for new property versus old property? What if I take your medical license, versus taking your land? What if I abolish your job or your welfare entitlement? How strong is the notion of new property?. The pre-1996 Welfare System.

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New Property v. Old Property

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new property v old property
New Property v. Old Property
  • How are the rights different for new property versus old property?
  • What if I take your medical license, versus taking your land?
  • What if I abolish your job or your welfare entitlement?
  • How strong is the notion of new property?
the pre 1996 welfare system
The pre-1996 Welfare System
  • What is the general attitude toward people on Welfare?
  • How was this reflected in the administration of the welfare programs?
  • What was AFDC?
  • What were the unintended consequences of the welfare system?
goldberg v kelly
Goldberg v. Kelly
  • What is a statutory entitlement?
  • How is it different from a constitutional entitlement?
  • What is the analogy to property?
what is the pre goldberg procedure
What is the pre-Goldberg Procedure?
  • Case worker first talks to client about the problems
  • Case worker sends termination recommendation to supervisor
  • If supervisor agrees, client is sent a letter outlining the problem and giving him 7 days to request a review by a higher up and to submit a written objection, prepared personally or by an attorney.
  • If the client does not respond, or the higher up confirms the termination, then the aid is stopped and the client is notified of this, the reasons, and the right to a post-termination "fair hearing"
why a hearing
Why a Hearing?
  • Why couldn't plaintiff hire an attorney and file a written response to the termination letter?
  • What could she do at a hearing that she could not do in writing?
  • Why wasn't a post-termination hearing enough?
  • Why didn't the state want to give everyone a hearing?
goldberg rights i
Goldberg Rights - I
  • 1) timely and adequate notice
  • 2) oral presentation of arguments
  • 3) oral presentation of evidence
  • 4) confronting adverse witnesses
  • 5) cross-examination of adverse witnesses
goldberg rights ii
Goldberg Rights - II
  • 6) disclosure to the claimant of opposing evidence
  • 7) the right to retain an attorney (no appointed counsel)
  • 8) a determination on the record of the hearing
  • 9) record of reasons and evidence relied on; and
  • 10) an impartial decision maker
costs of goldberg
Costs of Goldberg
  • What does granting these hearings do to the cost of removing someone from welfare?
  • What does this do to the global cost of the benefits system?
  • What does it do to the balance of benefits costs to administration costs?
  • What expectation does it create for welfare recipients?
the 1996 welfare reform act
The 1996 Welfare Reform Act
  • Who pushed for welfare reform?
  • What does the new name for AFDC
    • TANF - Temporary assistance for Needy Families
  • What does the name change tell you about the change in philosophy?
  • How does this affect future Goldberg actions?
employment hearings
Employment Hearings
  • Only government employees have constitutional rights to a hearing and due process
  • State rights are defined by the state law, not the US constitution, and can be broader than the US rights
  • States can create rights to employment due process for private employers
boards of regents v roth
Boards of Regents v Roth
  • What were the terms of the contract?
  • Why did he claim he was fired?
    • Is this before the court?
  • What process did he want?
  • Did the university claim he had done anything wrong?
    • Could this have changed the result?
  • Did he get the hearing?
perry v sinderman
Perry v. Sinderman
  • Facts
    • Taught for 10 years
    • University policy was to not fire without cause after 7 years
    • Fired without cause
  • What process did he want?
  • What did the court think?
  • Plaintiff claims he met the set standards
    • Like an entitlement
  • If the government has set standards you meet, you get a hearing
homeland security and the cia
Homeland Security and the CIA
  • One of the big fights over the Homeland Security Bill was the employee rights
    • Security agency personnel are subject to firing without stated cause and get no hearing.
    • The Homeland Security Act extends the definition of a national security job to many more employees, who thus lose civil service protection
  • Why do this?
  • Is this a good idea?
putting limits on the new property

Putting Limits on the New Property

What due process limits can the state put on new property it creates by statute or regulations?

cleveland board of education v loudermill
Cleveland Board of Education v. Loudermill
  • Could only be fired for cause
  • What sort of employment expectation does this create?
  • Is this enough to create a property right?
  • No pre-termination hearing, and took 9 months post-termination to get a hearing
  • Is this consistent with Sinderman?
loudermill at the united states supreme court
Loudermill at the United States Supreme Court
  • State said the job was a privilege so we get to set the criteria for holding it
    • This is the "bitter with the sweet" doctrine
  • Does the United States Supreme Court buy this argument?
  • What would be the result if the Court had bought the "bitter with the sweet" doctrine?
job security in public workplaces
Job Security in Public Workplaces
  • What is the traditional trade-off between a public job and a private job?
  • How can job security for government employees hurt the general public?
  • What has been the trend for job security in private employment?
  • What is the cost of reducing job security for public employees?
is due process the problem
Is Due Process the Problem?
  • Why was due process a big problem for welfare in the wake of Goldberg?
  • Does getting a pre-termination hearing mean you get to keep your job?
  • Civil service v. due process
    • It is not the constitutional due process that makes it hard to fire government workers
discussion problem 1
Discussion Problem 1
  • Assume you are the state health officer
  • What are your alternative careers?
  • How would limited job security affect your ability to protect the public's health?
  • What interest groups must you satisfy?
  • Which are strongest in LA?
discussion problem 2
Discussion Problem 2
  • How does electing prosecutors affect the way they do their job?
  • Is the prosecutors job just to get the most convictions as possible?
  • How does this lead to innocent men on death row?
  • Would it be better to have career prosecutors?