Changes in pre law advising
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CHANGES IN PRE-LAW ADVISING. A new realm. Who am I /Who are you?. ME. YOU. Angela Kailey Gauthier University of Oklahoma Pre-Law Advisor Classics & Letters Department . (staff) Advise students of all majors toward law school. Advise Classics & Letters students academically.

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Changes in pre law advising

CHANGES IN PRE-LAW ADVISING

A new realm


Who am i who are you

Who am I /Who are you?

ME

YOU

  • Angela Kailey Gauthier

  • University of Oklahoma

  • Pre-Law Advisor

  • Classics & Letters Department. (staff)

  • Advise students of all majors toward law school.

  • Advise Classics & Letters students academically.

  • Introduce yourself:

  • Name/ Institution / Title

  • Is there a pre-law advisor at your institution? faculty or staff?

  • Where are they housed?

  • Do you have a pre-law major/minor or program?


Question logical reasoning

QUESTION: Logical Reasoning

  • When pregnant lab rats are given caffeine equivalent to the amount a human would consume by drinking six cups of coffee per day, an increase in the incidence of birth defects results. When asked if the government would require warning labels on products containing caffeine, a spokesperson stated that it would not because if the finding of these studies were to be refuted in the future, the government would lose credibility.

  • 1. Which of the following is most strongly suggested by the government's statement above?

  • (A) A warning that applies to a small population is inappropriate.


  • (B) Very few people drink as many as six cups of coffee a day.


  • (C) There are doubts about the conclusive nature of studies on animals.


  • (D) Studies on rats provide little data about human birth defects.


  • (E) The seriousness of birth defects involving caffeine is not clear.


Answer to logical reasoning

Answer to Logical Reasoning

  • The Correct answer is C:

  • There are doubts about the conclusive nature of studies on animals.


Question analytical reasoning

QUESTION: Analytical Reasoning

  • 1. Buses 1, 2, and 3 make one trip each day, and they are the only ones that riders A, B, C, D, E, F, and G take to work.

  • Neither E nor G takes bus 1 on a day when B does.

  • G does not take bus 2 on a day when D does.

  • When A and F take the same bus, it is always bus 3.

  • Calways takes bus 3.

  • Traveling together to work, B, C, and G could take which of the same buses on a given day?

  • (A) 1 only(B) 2 only(C) 3 only(D) 2 and 3 only(E) 1, 2, and 3


Answer to analytical reasoning

Answer to Analytical Reasoning

  • The correct answer is (C).

  • Bus 1: If B, then no E or G

  • Bus 2: If D, then no G

  • Bus 3: C always

  • Bus 3: When A and F take the same bus.


Lsat format

LSAT FORMAT

Retrieved from: http://www.kaptest.com/LSAT/Learn-and-Discuss/Everything-LSAT/lsat-at-a-glance.html?om_rid=NsyonB&om_mid=_BRLOp0B8so8HcA


General advising tips

  • Top 5 things for students to consider (NOW)

  • Next 5 things for students to consider

General Advising TIPS

Top 5

1 – BA is #1 priority

2 – GPA is #1 priority

3 – LSAT score is #1 priority

4 – Involvement

5 – Skills for law school

PRE-LAW WORLD

Next 5

1 –Work on Personal Statement

2 – Think about connections for LOR’s

3 – Internships/research

4 – Visit schools/talk to admissions sit in on classes

5 – Cost and ROI!


Advising pre law

Advising Pre-Law

  • Types of Law- does it matter?

    • 1. Oil & Gas

    • Energy mgmt.~Petroleum eng.~geology

    • 2. Environmental

    • Geology or sustainability major

    • 3. Patentlaw

    • Hard science or engineer majors only!


What really matters

What really matters?

GPA & LSAT


Legal occupations data 2012

Legal occupations data 2012

TOTAL Legal Occupations=1,786,000

Lawyers=1,061,000 (31% women)

Judicial Law Clerks= 17,000

Judges/Magistrates/other judicial= 67,000

Paralegal/Legal Assistants= 418,000

Misc. Support Workers= 223,000

Retrieved from: http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.pdf


2012 planc conference june 2012 washington d c

Check out the website: PLANC.ORG

2012 PLANC ConferenceJune 2012, Washington D.C.

Council Associations

MAPLA Midwest Association of PreLaw Advisors

NAPLA Northeast Association of PreLaw Advisors

SAPLA Southern Association of PreLaw Advisors

SWAPLA Southwest Association of PreLaw Advisors

PCAPLA Pacific Coast Association of PreLaw Advisors

WAPLA Western Association of PreLaw Advisors


An era ends

An Era Ends

  • Sept. 2007 – Large Firm Salaries continue to rise!

  • July 2008 – New Grad Market Highest Level in 20 Years!

  • Aug. 2008 - Large Firm Salaries UP AGAIN!

  • July 2009 – Market shrinks for class of 2008:

    • Employment rate registers first decline since 2003

Reference: Leipold, James; Brave New World: The Entry-Level Legal Employment Market after the Great Recession; NALP; PLANC 6/13/12; Washington, D.C.


Reality check

Reality Check

  • Collapse of the credit market: no credit = no deals

  • Law firm transactional work dries up overnight

  • Firms: cut expenses; layoffs; deferrals for new grads

  • Jobs lost in legal sector 2008-10: 56,600

  • 8.7% of all US associates lost their jobs in 2009

  • “Class of 2010 saddled with falling average starting salaries as private practice jobs erode” July 2011

  • “Law school grads face worst job market yet:…” June 2011

Reference: NALP: The Association for Legal Career Professionals


Chang e s

  • JOBS AVAILABLE to JD

  • INCOME to DEBT RATIO

  • WHERE THE JOBS ARE

  • PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS

  • GPA GAINING STEAM

  • THE ETHICAL DILEMMA

Changes


More changes

  • 2012 Law School Graduate Statistic Updates

  • 56.2% of 2012 graduates employed in jobs requiring a JD (up from 54.9% in 2011)

  • 10.6% of graduates unemployed (8.1% in 2011)

  • 2010 largest entering class in history (these students graduated in spring 2013 – no statistics yet).

  • Applicant numbers: Fall 2012 = 67,700 Fall 2013 = 59,426 as of August 8 (down 12.3 %)

  • 51% of law schools have voluntarily cut the size of the entering class. [Ex: U of Iowa desired class size is 150: Fall 2010 = 203 / Fall 2013 = 94 without lowering standards.]

  • Retrieved From: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/08/law-school-applications-continue-to-tumble/

  • http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/31/education/law-schools-applications-fall-as-costs-rise-and-jobs-are-cut.html?pagewanted=all

MORE CHANGES


What s happening

What’s happening

  • Less intellectualism

  • Firms do not want to train

  • Hands-on learning

  • Employment practices

  • What else is available

  • AssuredOutcomesPartnership

  • Accountability reports

  • 2 years/combined curriculum/joint degrees

  • More practical training

  • Fewer entry level positions

  • More clinical exposure

  • Educating on professionalism

  • Alternative careers with a JD

  • Law school guarantees

  • Scrutiny of law schools

  • Other talk….


Do your homework

Do your homework

Alternatives to law school

Major/Minor

  • Do you need law school to:

  • Q: Become a Lobbyist

  • A: NO!

  • Do your research, there are often many paths to a career. If you need a JD then so be it! But if you think it just provides a path…consider carefully. (i.e. politics)

  • Nope…it really doesn’t matter! Make your B.A./B.S. is your number one priority – you never know what will happen prior to law school.

  • ~marriage

  • ~sick family member

  • ~sick of school

  • ~don’t get accepted

  • ~decide to go back later


So you want to be a lawyer

So you want to be a Lawyer?


Web sites you should know

Web Sites you should know

  • www.lsac.org

  • prelaw.ou.edu

  • www.bls.gov/ooh/

  • www.bc.edu/offices/careers/gradschool/law/lawlocator

  • www.top-law-schools.com

  • www.americanbar.org


References

REFERENCES

  • Articles used in this presentation (not referenced elsewhere):

  • An Existential Crisis for Law Schools, by Lincoln Caplan. (NYT) Retrieved From: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/an-existential-crisis-for-law-schools.html?_r=0&pagewanted=print

  • Find Satisfaction In the Law, by Ronald W. Fox, Esquire. Retrieved from: http://profdev.lp.findlaw.com/column/column18.html

  • LSAT Scores as Predictors of Law School Performance. By Law School Admission Council, Inc.

  • Law Dean Takes to the New York Times Op-Ed Page to Blame Media for Declining Law School Applications, By Elie Mystal. Retrieved From: http://abovethelaw.com/2012/11/law-dean-takes-to-the-new-york-times-op-ed-page-to-blame-media-for-declining-law-school-applications/

  • Law Schools’ Applications Fall as Costs Rise and Job are Cut, by Ethan Bronner. (NYT) Retrieved From: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/31/education/law-schools-applications-fall-as-costs-rise-and-jobs-are-cut.html

  • Law School is Worth the Money, by Lawrence Mitchell. (NYT) Retrieved From: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/opinion/law-school-is-worth-the-money.html

  • Law School by the Numbers: 300K Additional Law Grads by 2020; 73K New Jobs Forecast for Decade, by Debra Cassens Weiss. Retrieved From: http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/law_school_by_the_numbers_300k_additional_law_grads_by_2020_73k_new_jobs/

  • Think $160K is the Standard Big Law Salary? Think again, NALP Says, by Debra Cassens Weiss. Retrieved From: http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/think_160k_is_the_standard_biglaw_salary_think_again_nalp_says/

  • To the Class of 2015, by Paul Campos. Retrieved From: http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2012/08/to-class-of-2015.html

  • Truth or Dare: The New Employment Market, by James Leipold. (NALP) Retrieved From:www.nalp.org/uploads/1012NALPBulletinExecDir.pdf

  • U. of Iowa Sees Large Drop in Entering Law Students. (Inside Higher Ed). Retrieved From: http://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2013/09/27/u-iowa-sees-large-drop-entering-law-students

  • Will the Legal Establishment Allow a Two-year Law School? (CNBC.com). Retrieved From: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100991264


Thank you

THANK YOU!

~DISCUSSION~


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