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Point type Ignition Flow Chart. Auto 2 Trouble Shooting. Fixing something that is broken. How can you fix something efficiently if you don’t even know how it is broken? To troubleshoot something that doesn’t work correctly you need: To know how it is suppose to work

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Point type ignition flow chart l.jpg

Point type Ignition Flow Chart

Auto 2

Trouble Shooting

VHS Auto



Fixing something that is broken l.jpg
Fixing something that is broken

  • How can you fix something efficiently if you don’t even know how it is broken?

  • To troubleshoot something that doesn’t work correctly you need:

    • To know how it is suppose to work

    • The basics of how it works

    • Critical thinking comparing what isn’t working to how it is suppose to work

    • A logical process to eliminate the possible causes of the problem

    • Proper tools

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Trouble shooting l.jpg
Trouble shooting

  • If you had never seen an apple, never read about an apple, and no one had ever told you anything about an apple, it would very difficult for you to tell me what is wrong with these apples.

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Trouble shooting5 l.jpg
Trouble shooting

  • It would even be more difficult for you to tell me how to fix what is wrong with these apples

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Trouble shooting for no spark l.jpg
Trouble shooting for no spark

  • In the same way, if you haven’t learned how we make spark in the ignition system, it will be very difficult for you to figure out why an engine doesn’t have spark

  • If you don’t know the basics of electricity, it will be very difficult for you to diagnose what is wrong

  • If you don’t know how to use test equipment, it will be very difficult for you to find your problem

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Logical testing elimination l.jpg
Logical testing & elimination

  • Hopefully you learned by now:

    • How the primary ignition system works to make spark

    • Basic rules to series and parallel circuits and can apply the knowledge

    • How to select the proper electrical measuring tools and how to use them

  • So now we need to learn how to use a process of elimination to diagnose a vehicle that doesn’t have spark

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There is usually more that one right way to fix something l.jpg
There is usually more that one right way to fix something

  • The flow chart I have made for point type ignition is just the way that is logical and works efficiently for me

    • By no means is it the only way

  • Since we don’t have a lot of experience yet with diagnosis, lets use my method for logically eliminating all the causes of an ignition system that is not working correctly

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Primary ignition l.jpg
Primary Ignition

  • We had better know by now:

    • Key on, points on, primary current flows and creates a magnetic field around primary winding of coil

    • Points open, magnetic field crashes inducing high voltage into secondary winding creating spark

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Slide11 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

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Primary ignition circuit l.jpg
Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

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Slide15 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

NO

With key on, Is

There power to “+”

Side of coil?

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Primary ignition circuit16 l.jpg
Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

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Slide19 l.jpg

Points open

Points closed

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Primary ignition circuit20 l.jpg
Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

If we didn’t have power to “+” side

of coil, what would be the causes?

VHS Auto


Slide21 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

NO

With key on, Is

There power to “+”

Side of coil?

NO

Ballast resistor,

wiring to “+”

side of coil or

ign switch is open

VHS Auto


Primary ignition circuit22 l.jpg
Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

If you have power to coil positive

Then you know this side of circuit

Is doing it’s job and we can move

on

What should we

Check next ?

VHS Auto


Slide23 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

NO

With key on, Is

There power to “+”

Side of coil?

YES

NO

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

Ballast resistor,

wiring to “+”

side of coil or

ign switch is open

VHS Auto


Primary ignition circuit24 l.jpg
Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

VHS Auto



Slide26 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

NO

With key on, Is

There power to “+”

Side of coil?

YES

NO

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

Ballast resistor,

wiring to “+”

side of coil or

ign switch is open

NO

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

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Primary ignition circuit27 l.jpg
Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

When we crank the engine

What should the points do?

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Slide28 l.jpg

Must have primary wires for coil hooked up

CRANK

CRANK

CRANK

CRANK

CRANK

CRANK

CRANK

CRANK

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Slide29 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

NO

With key on, Is

There power to “+”

Side of coil?

YES

NO

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

Ballast resistor,

wiring to “+”

side of coil or

ign switch is open

STAYS OFF

(NO VOLTAGE)

NO

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

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Primary ignition circuit30 l.jpg
Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

So while cranking the engine

The light stays off

How much voltage should be left on the “-” side of

Coil with the points closed and current flowing?

How much voltage should be on the “-” side of

Coil with the points open?

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Write on back of flow chart l.jpg
Write on back of flow chart

  • With voltage to “+” side of coil, there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off)

    1. Points always closed

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Primary ignition circuit32 l.jpg
Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

What else would cause

The light to stay off?

VHS Auto


Write on back of flow chart33 l.jpg
Write on back of flow chart

  • With voltage to “+” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off)

    1. Points always closed

    2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil

VHS Auto


Open primary winding l.jpg
Open Primary winding

Don’t forget to isolate one side of the coil

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Primary ignition circuit35 l.jpg
Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

What else would cause

The light to stay off?

VHS Auto


Write on back of flow chart36 l.jpg
Write on back of flow chart

  • With voltage to “+” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off)

    1. Points always closed

    2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil

    3. Grounded condenser

VHS Auto



Checking a good condenser l.jpg
Checking a good condenser

It will charge

up and go

to infinite

resistance.

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Write on back of flow chart39 l.jpg
Write on back of flow chart

  • With voltage to “+” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off)

    1. Points always closed

    2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil

    3. Grounded condenser

    4. Grounded wire between coil “-” and points

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Slide41 l.jpg

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark

while cranking?

NO

With key on, Is

There power to “+”

Side of coil?

YES

NO

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

Ballast resistor,

wiring to “+”

side of coil or

ign switch is open

NO

Let’s continue on

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Slide42 l.jpg

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

VHS Auto


Slide43 l.jpg

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

Are points always staying closed? LOOK

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Slide44 l.jpg

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

Are points always staying closed? LOOK

YES

NO

Adjust Dwell

Do coil test

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Slide45 l.jpg

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

Are points always staying closed? LOOK

YES

NO

Adjust Dwell

Do coil test

GOOD

BAD

Replace

Check for a

grounded condenser

VHS Auto


Slide46 l.jpg

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

Are points always staying closed? LOOK

YES

NO

Adjust Dwell

Do coil test

GOOD

BAD

Replace

Check for a

grounded condenser

GOOD

BAD

Replace

Primary wire between

“-” side of coil and

points is grounded Repair

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Slide47 l.jpg

#1

#2

#3

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

#4

NO

That takes care of

The staying off side

Are points always staying closed? LOOK

YES

NO

Adjust Dwell

Do coil test

GOOD

BAD

Replace

Check for a

grounded condenser

GOOD

BAD

Replace

Primary wire between

“-” side of coil and

points is grounded Repair

VHS Auto


Slide48 l.jpg

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

Are points always staying closed? LOOK

YES

NO

Adjust Dwell

Do coil test

GOOD

BAD

Replace

Check for a

grounded condenser

Let’s go the

Other way

GOOD

BAD

Replace

Primary wire between

“-” side of coil and

points is grounded Repair

VHS Auto


Slide49 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark

while cranking?

NO

With key on, Is

There power to “+”

Side of coil?

YES

NO

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

Ballast resistor,

wiring to “+”

side of coil or

ign switch is open

VHS Auto


Primary ignition circuit50 l.jpg
Primary ignition circuit

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

RUN

-

+

-

+

VHS Auto


Slide51 l.jpg

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

“-” side of coil?

VHS Auto


Primary ignition circuit52 l.jpg
Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

When we crank the engine

What should the points do?

VHS Auto


Primary ignition circuit53 l.jpg
Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

So while cranking the engine

The light stays on

How much voltage should be left on the “-” side of

Coil with the points closed and current flowing?

How much voltage should be on the “-” side of

Coil with the points open?

VHS Auto


Write on back of flow chart54 l.jpg
Write on back of flow chart

  • There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays on)

    1. Points always open

VHS Auto



Primary ignition circuit56 l.jpg
Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

What Else would

Cause the light

To say on ?

VHS Auto


Write on back of flow chart57 l.jpg
Write on back of flow chart

  • There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays on)

    1. Points always open

    2. Open primary wire between “-” coil and points

VHS Auto



Primary ignition circuit59 l.jpg
Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

What Else would

Cause the light

To say on ?

VHS Auto


Write on back of flow chart60 l.jpg
Write on back of flow chart

  • There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays on)

    1. Points always open

    2. Open primary wire between “-” coil and points

    3. Points not grounded or contacts bad

VHS Auto



Slide62 l.jpg

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

“-” side of coil?

NO

Are points

always open?

VHS Auto


Slide63 l.jpg

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

“-” side of coil?

NO

Are points

always open?

NO

Points are either not grounded

or primary wire is open between

“-” side of coil and points

Check & repair

VHS Auto


Slide64 l.jpg

If the light blinks

while cranking. .

GREAT

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

“-” side of coil?

It has to blink

To have spark

NO

YES

Are points

always open?

YES

NO

Adjust dwell to Specs

Points are either not grounded

or primary wire is open between

“-” side of coil and points

Check & repair

VHS Auto


Slide65 l.jpg

If the light blinks

and the dwell is

set correctly

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

“-” side of coil?

NO

YES

Are points

always open?

YES

NO

Adjust dwell to Specs

Is there spark?

Points are either not grounded

or primary wire is open between

“-” side of coil and points

Check & repair

YES

GREAT If vehicle

won’t start, restart

at top of flow chart

VHS Auto


Slide66 l.jpg

If still no spark

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

“-” side of coil?

NO

YES

Are points

always open?

YES

NO

Adjust dwell to Specs

Is there spark?

Points are either not grounded

or primary wire is open between

“-” side of coil and points

Check & repair

YES

NO

GREAT If vehicle

won’t start, restart

at top of flow chart

Test coil & coil wire

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Open coil wire l.jpg
Open coil wire

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Slide70 l.jpg

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

“-” side of coil?

NO

YES

Are points

always open?

YES

NO

Adjust dwell to Specs

Is there spark?

Points are either not grounded

or primary wire is open between

“-” side of coil and points

Check & repair

YES

NO

GREAT If vehicle

won’t start, restart

at top of flow chart

Test coil & coil wire

GOOD

BAD

VHS Auto

Condenser is either open

or not grounded Repair

Replace


Checking a good condenser71 l.jpg
Checking a good condenser

It will charge

up and go

to infinite

resistance.

VHS Auto


Open condenser l.jpg
Open condenser

It won’t charge up.

Always at infinite

resistance.

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Weak spark l.jpg

NEW

PITTED

Weak Spark

  • Point type ignition should produce at least 20,000 volts (20 KV) which should jump up to at least ¼” and be blue in color

  • Let’s write this up at the to right of flow chart

  • Weak spark can be caused by:

    • Dwell out of specs

    • Bad coil (shorted windings, secondary open)

    • Bad condenser

    • Pitted points that arc

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We should be able to succeed l.jpg
We should be able to succeed

  • Next time we are in the shop, you will have 50 minutes to diagnosis and repair a vehicle that the customer complains of a “NO START”

  • It will have at least one problem in the primary ignition system that causes no spark

  • You will also be responsible to make sure the dwell is set correctly before you give it back to the customer

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Questions l.jpg
Questions?

VHS Auto


Slide77 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

YES

VHS Auto



Slide79 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

YES

Fuel system must

be in order

Is there spark at

one or two plug wires?

VHS Auto



Slide81 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

YES

Fuel system must

be in order

Is there spark at

one or two plug wires?

NO

Repair bad

cap or rotor

VHS Auto



Slide83 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

YES

Fuel system must

be in order

Is there spark at

one or two plug wires?

NO

YES

Make sure firing

order is correct

Repair bad

cap or rotor

Is distributor

in time?

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Firing order and distributor in time l.jpg
Firing order and distributor in time

  • Firing Order

    • Have to know which way distributor rotates

    • Have to know firing order

    • Have to know where #1 plug it

  • Distributor in time

    • Remove #1 plug and start up on compression stroke

    • Turn by hand (less than ½ turn) to TDC

    • See if rotor is point to #1 on cap

VHS Auto


Firing order l.jpg
Firing order

VHS Auto


Slide86 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

YES

Fuel system must

be in order

Is there spark at

one or two plug wires?

NO

YES

Make sure firing

order is correct

Repair bad

cap or rotor

Is distributor

in time?

YES

NO

Correct

Ifstill have spark but won’t start, check for

mechanical problems (compression)

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Congratulations l.jpg
Congratulations

  • Once we learn fuel systems, you should be able to efficiently diagnosis why a car with point type ignition won’t start

VHS Auto


Questions88 l.jpg
Questions?

VHS Auto


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