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Point type Ignition Flow Chart - Auto 2Trouble Shooting


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Point type Ignition Flow Chart

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Point type ignition flow chart l.jpg

Point type Ignition Flow Chart

Auto 2

Trouble Shooting

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Fixing something that is broken l.jpg

Fixing something that is broken

  • How can you fix something efficiently if you don’t even know how it is broken?

  • To troubleshoot something that doesn’t work correctly you need:

    • To know how it is suppose to work

    • The basics of how it works

    • Critical thinking comparing what isn’t working to how it is suppose to work

    • A logical process to eliminate the possible causes of the problem

    • Proper tools

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Trouble shooting l.jpg

Trouble shooting

  • If you had never seen an apple, never read about an apple, and no one had ever told you anything about an apple, it would very difficult for you to tell me what is wrong with these apples.

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Trouble shooting

  • It would even be more difficult for you to tell me how to fix what is wrong with these apples

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Trouble shooting for no spark

  • In the same way, if you haven’t learned how we make spark in the ignition system, it will be very difficult for you to figure out why an engine doesn’t have spark

  • If you don’t know the basics of electricity, it will be very difficult for you to diagnose what is wrong

  • If you don’t know how to use test equipment, it will be very difficult for you to find your problem

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Logical testing elimination l.jpg

Logical testing & elimination

  • Hopefully you learned by now:

    • How the primary ignition system works to make spark

    • Basic rules to series and parallel circuits and can apply the knowledge

    • How to select the proper electrical measuring tools and how to use them

  • So now we need to learn how to use a process of elimination to diagnose a vehicle that doesn’t have spark

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There is usually more that one right way to fix something l.jpg

There is usually more that one right way to fix something

  • The flow chart I have made for point type ignition is just the way that is logical and works efficiently for me

    • By no means is it the only way

  • Since we don’t have a lot of experience yet with diagnosis, lets use my method for logically eliminating all the causes of an ignition system that is not working correctly

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Primary ignition l.jpg

Primary Ignition

  • We had better know by now:

    • Key on, points on, primary current flows and creates a magnetic field around primary winding of coil

    • Points open, magnetic field crashes inducing high voltage into secondary winding creating spark

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Draw primary ignition on back of flow chart fairly large l.jpg

Draw primary ignition on back of flow chart fairly large

RUN

-

+

-

+

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Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

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Using remote starter to crank

B+

S

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Slide13 l.jpg

Make sure you are checking at the proper end of wire

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Primary ignition circuit l.jpg

Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

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Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

NO

With key on, Is

There power to “+”

Side of coil?

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Primary ignition circuit16 l.jpg

Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

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Slide17 l.jpg

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Making sure test light works

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Points open

Points closed

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Primary ignition circuit20 l.jpg

Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

If we didn’t have power to “+” side

of coil, what would be the causes?

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Slide21 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

NO

With key on, Is

There power to “+”

Side of coil?

NO

Ballast resistor,

wiring to “+”

side of coil or

ign switch is open

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Primary ignition circuit22 l.jpg

Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

If you have power to coil positive

Then you know this side of circuit

Is doing it’s job and we can move

on

What should we

Check next ?

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Slide23 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

NO

With key on, Is

There power to “+”

Side of coil?

YES

NO

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

Ballast resistor,

wiring to “+”

side of coil or

ign switch is open

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Primary ignition circuit24 l.jpg

Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

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Slide25 l.jpg

Must have primary wires for coil hooked up

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Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

NO

With key on, Is

There power to “+”

Side of coil?

YES

NO

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

Ballast resistor,

wiring to “+”

side of coil or

ign switch is open

NO

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

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Primary ignition circuit27 l.jpg

Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

When we crank the engine

What should the points do?

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Must have primary wires for coil hooked up

CRANK

CRANK

CRANK

CRANK

CRANK

CRANK

CRANK

CRANK

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Slide29 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

NO

With key on, Is

There power to “+”

Side of coil?

YES

NO

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

Ballast resistor,

wiring to “+”

side of coil or

ign switch is open

STAYS OFF

(NO VOLTAGE)

NO

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

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Primary ignition circuit30 l.jpg

Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

So while cranking the engine

The light stays off

How much voltage should be left on the “-” side of

Coil with the points closed and current flowing?

How much voltage should be on the “-” side of

Coil with the points open?

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Write on back of flow chart l.jpg

Write on back of flow chart

  • With voltage to “+” side of coil, there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off)

    1. Points always closed

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Primary ignition circuit32 l.jpg

Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

What else would cause

The light to stay off?

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Write on back of flow chart33 l.jpg

Write on back of flow chart

  • With voltage to “+” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off)

    1. Points always closed

    2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil

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Open primary winding l.jpg

Open Primary winding

Don’t forget to isolate one side of the coil

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Primary ignition circuit35 l.jpg

Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

What else would cause

The light to stay off?

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Write on back of flow chart36 l.jpg

Write on back of flow chart

  • With voltage to “+” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off)

    1. Points always closed

    2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil

    3. Grounded condenser

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Grounded condenser l.jpg

Grounded condenser

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Checking a good condenser l.jpg

Checking a good condenser

It will charge

up and go

to infinite

resistance.

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Write on back of flow chart39 l.jpg

Write on back of flow chart

  • With voltage to “+” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays off)

    1. Points always closed

    2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil

    3. Grounded condenser

    4. Grounded wire between coil “-” and points

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Shorted primary wire to ground l.jpg

Shorted primary wire to ground

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Slide41 l.jpg

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark

while cranking?

NO

With key on, Is

There power to “+”

Side of coil?

YES

NO

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

Ballast resistor,

wiring to “+”

side of coil or

ign switch is open

NO

Let’s continue on

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Slide42 l.jpg

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

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Slide43 l.jpg

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

Are points always staying closed? LOOK

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Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

Are points always staying closed? LOOK

YES

NO

Adjust Dwell

Do coil test

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Slide45 l.jpg

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

Are points always staying closed? LOOK

YES

NO

Adjust Dwell

Do coil test

GOOD

BAD

Replace

Check for a

grounded condenser

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Slide46 l.jpg

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

Are points always staying closed? LOOK

YES

NO

Adjust Dwell

Do coil test

GOOD

BAD

Replace

Check for a

grounded condenser

GOOD

BAD

Replace

Primary wire between

“-” side of coil and

points is grounded Repair

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Slide47 l.jpg

#1

#2

#3

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

#4

NO

That takes care of

The staying off side

Are points always staying closed? LOOK

YES

NO

Adjust Dwell

Do coil test

GOOD

BAD

Replace

Check for a

grounded condenser

GOOD

BAD

Replace

Primary wire between

“-” side of coil and

points is grounded Repair

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Slide48 l.jpg

Crank engine, does test

light blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

Are points always staying closed? LOOK

YES

NO

Adjust Dwell

Do coil test

GOOD

BAD

Replace

Check for a

grounded condenser

Let’s go the

Other way

GOOD

BAD

Replace

Primary wire between

“-” side of coil and

points is grounded Repair

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Slide49 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark

while cranking?

NO

With key on, Is

There power to “+”

Side of coil?

YES

NO

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

Ballast resistor,

wiring to “+”

side of coil or

ign switch is open

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Primary ignition circuit50 l.jpg

Primary ignition circuit

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

RUN

-

+

-

+

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Slide51 l.jpg

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

“-” side of coil?

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Primary ignition circuit52 l.jpg

Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

When we crank the engine

What should the points do?

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Primary ignition circuit53 l.jpg

Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

So while cranking the engine

The light stays on

How much voltage should be left on the “-” side of

Coil with the points closed and current flowing?

How much voltage should be on the “-” side of

Coil with the points open?

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Write on back of flow chart54 l.jpg

Write on back of flow chart

  • There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays on)

    1. Points always open

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Point always open l.jpg

Point always open

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Primary ignition circuit56 l.jpg

Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

What Else would

Cause the light

To say on ?

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Write on back of flow chart57 l.jpg

Write on back of flow chart

  • There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays on)

    1. Points always open

    2. Open primary wire between “-” coil and points

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Open primary wire l.jpg

Open primary wire

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Primary ignition circuit59 l.jpg

Primary ignition circuit

RUN

-

+

-

+

What Else would

Cause the light

To say on ?

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Write on back of flow chart60 l.jpg

Write on back of flow chart

  • There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “-” side of coil while cranking (light stays on)

    1. Points always open

    2. Open primary wire between “-” coil and points

    3. Points not grounded or contacts bad

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Points not grounded l.jpg

Points not grounded

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Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

“-” side of coil?

NO

Are points

always open?

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Slide63 l.jpg

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

“-” side of coil?

NO

Are points

always open?

NO

Points are either not grounded

or primary wire is open between

“-” side of coil and points

Check & repair

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Slide64 l.jpg

If the light blinks

while cranking. .

GREAT

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

“-” side of coil?

It has to blink

To have spark

NO

YES

Are points

always open?

YES

NO

Adjust dwell to Specs

Points are either not grounded

or primary wire is open between

“-” side of coil and points

Check & repair

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Slide65 l.jpg

If the light blinks

and the dwell is

set correctly

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

“-” side of coil?

NO

YES

Are points

always open?

YES

NO

Adjust dwell to Specs

Is there spark?

Points are either not grounded

or primary wire is open between

“-” side of coil and points

Check & repair

YES

GREAT If vehicle

won’t start, restart

at top of flow chart

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Slide66 l.jpg

If still no spark

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

“-” side of coil?

NO

YES

Are points

always open?

YES

NO

Adjust dwell to Specs

Is there spark?

Points are either not grounded

or primary wire is open between

“-” side of coil and points

Check & repair

YES

NO

GREAT If vehicle

won’t start, restart

at top of flow chart

Test coil & coil wire

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Checking coil wire l.jpg

Checking Coil Wire

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Open Secondary Winding

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Open coil wire

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Slide70 l.jpg

Is there power to the

“-” side of coil key on?

YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

“-” side of coil?

NO

YES

Are points

always open?

YES

NO

Adjust dwell to Specs

Is there spark?

Points are either not grounded

or primary wire is open between

“-” side of coil and points

Check & repair

YES

NO

GREAT If vehicle

won’t start, restart

at top of flow chart

Test coil & coil wire

GOOD

BAD

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Condenser is either open

or not grounded Repair

Replace


Checking a good condenser71 l.jpg

Checking a good condenser

It will charge

up and go

to infinite

resistance.

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Open condenser l.jpg

Open condenser

It won’t charge up.

Always at infinite

resistance.

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Condenser not hooked to ground l.jpg

Condenser not hooked to ground

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Weak spark l.jpg

NEW

PITTED

Weak Spark

  • Point type ignition should produce at least 20,000 volts (20 KV) which should jump up to at least ¼” and be blue in color

  • Let’s write this up at the to right of flow chart

  • Weak spark can be caused by:

    • Dwell out of specs

    • Bad coil (shorted windings, secondary open)

    • Bad condenser

    • Pitted points that arc

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We should be able to succeed l.jpg

We should be able to succeed

  • Next time we are in the shop, you will have 50 minutes to diagnosis and repair a vehicle that the customer complains of a “NO START”

  • It will have at least one problem in the primary ignition system that causes no spark

  • You will also be responsible to make sure the dwell is set correctly before you give it back to the customer

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Questions l.jpg

Questions?

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Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

YES

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Spark at coil wire l.jpg

Spark at coil wire

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Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

YES

Fuel system must

be in order

Is there spark at

one or two plug wires?

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Spark at plug wire l.jpg

Spark at plug wire

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Slide81 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

YES

Fuel system must

be in order

Is there spark at

one or two plug wires?

NO

Repair bad

cap or rotor

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Bad cap and bad rotor l.jpg

Bad cap and bad rotor

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Slide83 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

YES

Fuel system must

be in order

Is there spark at

one or two plug wires?

NO

YES

Make sure firing

order is correct

Repair bad

cap or rotor

Is distributor

in time?

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Firing order and distributor in time l.jpg

Firing order and distributor in time

  • Firing Order

    • Have to know which way distributor rotates

    • Have to know firing order

    • Have to know where #1 plug it

  • Distributor in time

    • Remove #1 plug and start up on compression stroke

    • Turn by hand (less than ½ turn) to TDC

    • See if rotor is point to #1 on cap

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Firing order l.jpg

Firing order

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Slide86 l.jpg

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?

YES

Fuel system must

be in order

Is there spark at

one or two plug wires?

NO

YES

Make sure firing

order is correct

Repair bad

cap or rotor

Is distributor

in time?

YES

NO

Correct

Ifstill have spark but won’t start, check for

mechanical problems (compression)

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Congratulations l.jpg

Congratulations

  • Once we learn fuel systems, you should be able to efficiently diagnosis why a car with point type ignition won’t start

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Questions?

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